the beat goes on

i thought i'd make a posting of the comments jadon left and my response to them... which i think he's going to add to later... but i think which shed some more light on the situation of which i was just writing about... the male/female dynamic. these are good discussions to have, if not somewhat awkward and uncomfortable. but that's life! better to have those convos that make us think, make us pursue the lord on things we might not have before, and humble us in knowing we don't have it all figured out. and i appreciate jadon for being a brother and challenging me on what i'm saying as well! :)

i'd also like to put this DISCLAIMER out there for all my single guy friends - this is blog was written to NO ONE in particular! so boys, please don't wonder if i'm secretly hinting at you and hoping you'll somehow stumble upon my blog and read this, i'm just doing what us in the blog-o-sphere do -> share opinion. so you can take what i'm saying, or send it right back. but please know though, that there is NOTHING personal in any of this!!

Below is a section written by JADON:

Hmm, I see where you are coming from, and there is for sure some validity to this. And this is probably going to come out completely wrong, but I think I have some thoughts to share!
This may be a bit hard for me to verbalize through typing here, instead of talking in person, but, I think this is taken a bit too much to the extreme here. There is some counter stuff that needs to be said.
I think the word, and I have said this about so many topics, is balance. There has to be a balance and I think where you are coming from is a reaction to the other side of the pendulum, and going completely the opposite way does not make things any better.
I think we have hyped up Christian relationships a bit too much, and put way too much pressure on both the guy and the gal.
I have never had a girlfriend and am really hesitant to even ask a Christian woman out for coffee, because I am worried that I will lead her on. I don't think this is right! Back in the day it was okay for men to ask different girls to go for coffee or a shake, just to get to know them and figure out if they were compatible at all, no pressure. Now we can't do that in the Christian culture without it being blown out of proportion and the girl either thinking she is being led on or else running away because she thinks that the guy wants to marry her and she isn't interested!
I know that I can start to like a woman through seeing her in group get together's and stuff, but one can only go so deep in that. Sometimes that won't work at all, for instance they might run in different circles and not interact at all unless they intentionally go for coffee to chat a bit and get to know each other. Even if they do run in the same circles, one can often only get to know someone so deep in those big groups, sometimes not even getting to go past a wave across the room for weeks at a time, unless you are somewhat intentional!
I know that men need to be men, but I don't think it is fair that this pressure is put on a man that he can only be intentional with a woman if he is interested in courting her! That puts too much pressure on the relationship. I think it is important for a man to have the freedom to be intentional about getting to know a woman to determine if they are suitable for each other. Or can't a man "just be friends" with a woman EVER? Is that not allowed?
I have enough trouble initiating relationships with women due to fear that I will scare them away, let alone having to worry that initiating friendship means that I need to be courting her for marriage! That is a ton of pressure!
And I do not think that the initiating should be completely in the guys court. I think that the guy needs to initiate the relationship going from just friends to a courtship, but the woman does need to take some initiative here. I have seen women take this "non-initiative" to the extreme with me in the past. I had a girl that liked me, but I had no idea whatsoever that she was interested in me because she barely said a word to me, essentially she ignored me. I thought that she had no use for me, and would have never thought about pursuing her even as friends. We ended up at a table together and the conversation went to this topic and we debated about who is supposed to take initiative, and that is when I figured out that she didn't hate me, but in fact was just trying not to initiate anything, because she had been told that the guy was to take all of the initiative! It is more than okay for a girl to initiate friendship, how else is a guy supposed to know that you are interested in being in the same room with him, let alone potentially courting or marriage!
Lots more I could say, but I really do think that it is all about balance! Maybe we should chat about this over skype sometime... oh shoot, is that taking too much initiative and leading you on? :-)
Relationships are difficult!

08 February, 2011 07:49


and ME (chelsa):

hey jadon... i agree that it's about balance. and there's a ton of pressure from our culture, from that strange thing called christian sub-culture, from families, notions of what biblical dating looks like, etc. it's a jumbled up mess.

i think the purpose of my "rant", shall we call it that, was just to make both guys and girls think. i'm not saying guys and girls can't be friends, definitely not. but there is a certain danger to them spending a lot of time alone. i don't think it's healthy or profitable. why is it necessary?

we often talk about girls being sensitive to guys... not causing them to stumble with how you dress, carry yourself, flirt, etc. because they're such visual creatures. so, being a sister, i wouldn't want to do those things and cause someone to stumble in their faith.

but do guys know that their actions often cause girls to stumble? is it "not legit" because it seems extreme? is it infringing on the rights of people to just be friends? paul talks about us giving up our rights to not cause others to stumble. girls' hearts are SO easily mislead, just like guys are easily influenced by the visual. i'm not saying there isn't anything either or guys or girls can do on their own to help safeguard their hearts against that, but i know my actions can cause someone to stumble, why, out of christianly love, wouldn't i do my best NOT to do that very action?

let me pose you this questions. if you are taking a girl to coffee to see if you are compatible, why not call it a date? why not tell her you want to take her out and get to know her (are your intentions not to see if something could be there?). what if you weren't interested? is that okay? YES. of course. but this is the part we don't like - someone has to SAY that to the other person. OUCH. isn't that mean? doesn't that hurt their feelings? well, maybe. but isn't it better to speak the truth in love and grace than to allow the other person to stumble because it makes you uncomfortable to have to say something? if you and the girl are meant to be friends, your friendship will survive the discomfort of establishing that there's nothing going on between you. if you hate having to have that conversation, but it's going to help out a sister, why are you holding back? i don't think the answer is never spending time with the opposite sex, but rather communicating about what's going on. if you just want to be friends, why not just say that? "hey, i'd love to get caught up, can we go for coffee? and just so you know, i'm pursuing your friendship." maybe that sound weird, but it would save a lot of girls' hearts.

when my bro in law decided he wanted to see how compatible he and my sis might be, they had hung out in groups for a while, he had begun texting her a bit, but soon after he called and asked her to hang out. and he said, just so you know, it's a date. so she knew going in what his intentions were. after their first date, which obviously went well, he asked her out again and again and she said yes again and again. fair enough. now they're married.

i think where two people have been friends for awhile, and they go for coffee every once in a while to get caught up, that might be different. but it's situational and depends on the people, kind of like you said before - balance.

what i'm talking about is communicating intentions. being careful with a girl's heart as you spend time with her. taking the risk of putting it out there if your intentions are to go on a date with her, and then communicating to her that you're interested, or not, and then being friends or going your separate ways after that.

a girl will hold on for months, years, if the guy keeps giving her even the slightest indication that he's interested, even if his intentions are never to go beyond. even though that sounds completely ridiculous. it is ridiculous. it's flawed and sinful, and girls need to guard against letting themselves go there. but what about guys? if they knew that's what their actions said to girls might they become more aware of how they affect girls and therefore guard their hearts by being more forthright with them? guys' typically hate the DTR. girls need it. we're too fallible and apt to go in the direction of misconstruing what guys intentions really are.

and i do believe girls need to respond to initiative and give the guy a response. it shouldn't be one-way. no guy is going to keep pursuing a girl if she never gives him any indication that she's reciprocating his feeling.

so if my entry sounded a little extreme, it's cause it's that big of a deal and it's that important. and there's not much talk about it. so if there's some discussion stirring up, i'm glad. and i'd love to skype sometime, jadon. i'm pretty sure i know where we stand in our friendship. ;) we can definitely talk about this more.

chels

to the boys, the brothers, the males and the men

...those otherwise known as the XY beings...

a note from a sister... which will hopefully be a little insight into the minds of those strange beings we call females. maybe a little more insight into why "men are from mars and women are from venus" and all the stuff in between.

on initiating.

warning: when you initiate with a girl, when you give her attention, when you text her frequently and often, invite her to hang out, spend time with her one on one, take her along to family outings, and things of this such nature, what you're telling her is

I'M INTERESTED.

it doesn't matter if you're not. she doesn't know that. see, females are flawed. we want attention, affection, to be desired. we want a guy to fulfill us... even when we know it's idolatry, it's a battle to fight against that. and lots of us don't even try. and some do. but even then, the EVE in each one of us is calling out for love.

are you helping her, protecting her heart, thinking of her when you're treating her in the aforementioned way?

"what's that? you didn't know?? you had no idea that's how girls are??"

well, i don't blame you. in the same way that girls, as a result of the fall, have the desire to manipulate, control and rule over man and are called to fight that desire to do so. (if you're wondering where i get this... see genesis, ephesians, timothy...and examine the covenant relationship between god and man, christ and man, christ and the church... it's enlightening).

so you are called to do what women are to not: to initiate. women are called NOT to pursue a man, but to wait. to be submissive to the lord and wait on him. if only someone had of told EVE that in the garden. maybe she wouldn't have initiated eating the apple.

or maybe, adam would have stood up to her and taken responsibility for what god had given him: EVE. HEADSHIP. INITIATIVE. maybe, when god called adam to account for eve's behaviour in the garden, adam wouldn't have shrunk back from his responsibility and blamed it on eve. he didn't take the risk.

see brothers, a girl is not like a t-shirt you can try on for a while and see if you like the fit, the colour, the texture of the fabric. that's the easy way. that's the sinful way. a girl is the "weaker sex", which is translated as porcelain. if you try her on, test her out, without taking the risk of making her yours (purchasing the t-shirt, for sake of analogy... this is a fallible analogy, please let me point out). in not taking that risk, you're damaging her heart. you're leading her astray and honestly, causing her to stumble.

if you like a girl, if you want to pursue her, then do it. but if you're not sure if you're interested, not sure if you really want to be dating someone, not sure, not sure, not sure... STAY AWAY from anything that seems like initiating. please, think about your sisters out there! it's heartbreaking to hear single girl after single girl tell me stories of guys who led them on for months, years... goodness knows how long.

and ladies... if a guy likes you, he'll ask you out. and if you're wondering, wondering, wondering... he's not the kind of guy you want to be with, so confess to a friend, pray about it... and leave him behind. cause if he likes you, he'll ask you out. and then you'll know, at least initially, that he's the kind of guy worth letting pursue you.